Curse

Glasswalker · Aug 19, 2005, 06:30 PM // 18:30

I've pretty much stayed out of this debate up until now, as I am generally against nerfing skills. I tend to like making the players come up with original ways of combatting the abuse of a normally good and useful skill.

Sure, the gripes against this skill are warrented, but if you make it less powerful, the skills it was legitimatly created to counter become too powerful. I believe this still.

But then it occurred to me -- The solution is to make it MORE powerful.

I'm serious here. When it is used for its intended purpose it's great. The problem is in spamming it. So my proposed solution is to make it work as so:

Nature's Renewal
(Nature Ritual) Create a level 1..8 Spirit. For creatures within its range, all Enchantments, Hexes and Spirits are removed. For 30..126 seconds, Enchantments, Hexes and Spirits take twice as long to cast. This Spirit dies after 30..126 seconds.

Tee hee. 2 Birds:1 Stone.

Builds that rely heavily on Enchantments and Hexes still have to worry about this skill (and rightfully so in my book), but now Spirit Spammers have their own mindless counter.

Chew on that one for a while.

bahloney · Aug 19, 2005, 06:52 PM // 18:52

It's been suggested a few times before that NR become elite, and I really cant see why it wouldn't be elite in the first place, seeing as it's the most effective enchantment and hex removal ability in the game, and it being elite would prevent it being used in conjunction with another elite like oath shot.

I'm all for it being used, but it's somewhat silly that something so powerful is so common. Can you imagine if signet of midnight weren't elite and could be used with virulence? Poor warriors

bobrath · Aug 19, 2005, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Extending/morphing Glasswalker's idea. Add some sort of penalty into the casting of NR.

"For each enchantment/hex removed, caster loses 30 hp"
or
"For each enchantment/hex removed, caster is affected by 5 mp exhaustion"
or
"Upon casting, caster loses all energy"
or
"Upon casting, all bow attack skills are disabled for 10 seconds"

Basically force a choice on the caster. They can put NR out there, but it will dramatically affect the caster in exchange for the power that comes with it. Couple this with making the skill Elite and you've put a pretty big dent in the abusablility of the skill.

manveruppd · Aug 19, 2005, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomEngy

So how's this for a fix: Instead of stripping enchantments and hexes, it just cuts their duration by a %, based on Wilderness Survival. (This of course applies only to enchantments and hexes cast while under the effects.) That way it can keep mass enchants in check without demolishing them entirely.

Best idea in this thread so far! And you could even keep the double casting time in the skill and it still wouldn't be overpowered!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyhart

I refer to Martyr, which I think effectivly deals with builds that try and over run people with conditions. But Martyr has a big drawback, i.e. you get all the conditions which means that it won't be spammed.

So i think there should be a Hex version of Martyr. would be an effective counter to Hex heavy builds but wouldn't be common enough to make all hexs pointless. also no body would spam it as they wouldn't want all those hexs.

I don't agree with this: Monks have some very good Hex-removal spells (much better than Necromancers have enchantment removals, as we only get three and they are both expensive and have long recharges). The problem is that, outside Monks for condition- and hex-removal and Necros for enchantment-removal, the other classes have nothing (with the exception of the Mesmer, whose spells don't offer mass-removal, only one at a time and with long recharges, making them not good in that role). This the devs sought to redress with NR, but, in my opinion, grossly overcompensated: it has about 100 times the area of effect of Rend Enchantments, doesn't cost health to the user, costs less energy, and removes hexes to boot!
I only recently started playing a curses-heavy build, so I don't have much experience of how heavy enchantments or hexes would affect the game, but I get the feeling that, barring NR, removal options are pretty limited. You need a Necro to remove hexes and a monk to remove enchants, though a mesmer can have a dab at removing both. The problem is, with only 8 skill slots, these vital skills often get left out (especially with PUGs, where people don't confer to see if they're taking everything they need to take before entering the game). The only thing I consistently see people not neglecting, in fact, is condition removal, which is ridiculously easy: with 2 low-energy spells, a monk can remove conditions from an entire party which it took me 4 different skills to put on them! Just you wait till I get Fragility, then they'll cry like babies every time you cast Martyr!

Legendary Dryder · Aug 19, 2005, 09:08 PM // 21:08

If people would stop copying FoTM builds and start noticing that the old builds with skilled players beat them all then this wouldnt be a problem, NR Oath Shot isnt new, just newbs are just learning how to use a build like that. I started spirit spammers to counter spikes (everyone did laugh at me at first, trust me, they sayed killing the spirits wasnt hard swith a spike group and the extra little hp wouldnt stop them). But i continued and mad ea spirit group, thenthe problem came.. how to stop this damn build. I was fouling around with my monk and just found an interesting thing... Bathazars aura..hmm... My team consisted of these guys: lvl 15 E/Mo, Lvl 13 W/something.. not sure, Me- Lvl 12 Mo/Me, and another Monk.. Lvl 13 Mo/W.. i think. ok we thought we sucked, i was just testing out my build, and just had caped this elite signet of judgement, i used arcane echo and bathazars, wow... we got a 202 record til we got to bored to play anymore. [this was before smites became popular]. So i spread this build, then smite builds became all the rage. W/R Axe was another thing i started, my apprentice started using axes, and i noticed he was killing monsters faster than me at lvl 13 with his RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing axe while i had a +15 greater than 50 sword and he had a 6-28 chaos axe [i bought this for him]. So i switched the axe, i was W/R so i was trying differnt stuff, and found this skill tigers fury.. Then i went to halls, no one would let me join because they kept saying axes wernt for pvp. People saw how sick my build was and trala la bam done. Since im bored and feel like releasing the next FoTM build thats extremely gay and will cause mass nerfage (a PUG that i got to run this killed Unworthy in 8 seconds, [edit I] also did 1v4 comp arenas with 10 consecutive wins with this)

this is intire team
E/Mo
Weapon- Melee (+5 Energy sword from denravi works)
Focus- dont know(maybe +1 smite one, theres no pvp smite 20/20 focus so im forced to search for the pve one later when i have time)

Atribute
12 smite
16 EST

Skills
Ether Renewal [E]
Bathazars Aura (thinking of editing this because it kinda gets redundant)
Zealots Fire
Divine Boon
Aura Of Restoration
Gale
(something else, cant remember what, probably purge conditions or Healing breeze)
Ressurect Signet

This Build is sick, its just very hard to master, cant over cast divine boon or your downed for 7 seconds, even a sprit spamer cant stop you, your encants are instant casting, and recharge at such a fast rate, with this build you heal yourself for 105 health per 1/2 second about [your just spamming divine boon](should be 1/4 but human reflexes arnt that fast, and gotta consider lag) Spikes can rarely kill you, you just run around, pick someone, and your team chain gales them, they die in 5 seconds.. repeat. Alter matches are a joke to this build... just walk up there, and you kill there hero. only problems with this build maybe might be relic matches (havnt really tested this because find 8 people to do it is pretty hard), but hey, just go kill there hero

.

People quit RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing whining, theres builds out there that do very sick things, i have one build that does no damage but keeps other team from doing anything (you interupt them every 1/4 second).. very annoying to everything...

bobrath · Aug 20, 2005, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Yes... you invented all of those builds and strats...

Mhydrian · Aug 20, 2005, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Enchantment builds are the overpowered aspect of guildwars. People are just pissed that NR actually counters these UBER and otherwise impossible builds. Im all for NR, I think its a great skill and actually prevents people from hiding underneath enchantment after enchantment.

Hiawatha · Aug 20, 2005, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Enchantment builds also make for half of the diversity, and NR destroys all that diversity. Not just the "über" builds but, like, half of all fun builds.

Phades · Aug 21, 2005, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

Extending/morphing Glasswalker's idea. Add some sort of penalty into the casting of NR.

"For each enchantment/hex removed, caster loses 30 hp"

Might as well just assign a death penalty on each use of a spirit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

"For each enchantment/hex removed, caster is affected by 5 mp exhaustion"
or
"Upon casting, caster loses all energy"

Like energy denial, it would be largely avoided with shifts in the energy pool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

"Upon casting, all bow attack skills are disabled for 10 seconds"

Would need to be all skills are disabled for the duration of the spirit, in the instance of the 0 attribute point wilderness survival characters. Forcing a small hiccup within ranger primaries wouldnt solve alot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

Basically force a choice on the caster. They can put NR out there, but it will dramatically affect the caster in exchange for the power that comes with it. Couple this with making the skill Elite and you've put a pretty big dent in the abusablility of the skill.

The premis is good and should exist within every skill, but the changes need to be a bit more involved than your suggestions.

Hiawatha · Aug 21, 2005, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Hmmm. How 'bout making spirits share the life-force in their territory? The more spirits, the quicker they die. Feast for soul-reaping necros

Phades · Aug 21, 2005, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Nah, you would need something to the effect of ward against spirits or some kind of necro ability on par with frozen soil in area of effect that just blocks or converts spirits to their will.

But all either of these will do, is just cause a shift in the game to require the use of those skills within pvp to prevent the possibility of spirits affecting the map and the game does not really improve as it still denies a portion of the game from ever occuring.

Hiawatha · Aug 21, 2005, 02:24 AM // 02:24

I dunno, rather than countering one set of skills with a specific skill unique to a single profession, I think the balance should be built into the skill to be countered from the beginning.

I don't really think it'd be very interesting to mess with _all_ the nature rituals, given that they're one of the more nifty concepts in the game, but what I've seen of this spirit-spamming is pretty icky. So, what to do? Being able to stack different rituals is very important, of course, but how important is it to have two spirits of the same kind in the same area? Not very.

Phades · Aug 21, 2005, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Plenty of other methods and skills within the game mess with entire lines of skills, but people do not seem to mind much. Most of the time there are other work arounds within the class being countered or others to shut down that line entirely.

The game has anti-melee skills, which neuter warriors without substantial outside assistance.

The game has anti-buff/debuff skills, which neuter many support classes. Only one being really effective, but works for this discussion.

The game has anti-damage skills, which neuter offensive oriented classes.

Then there are the non-specific interupts which disrupt, but typically do not completely disable a target. Energy denail also disrupts, but more in the form of create a slower application of skills through the use of +energy items.

Hiawatha · Aug 21, 2005, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Hmm, yes, but I can't think of any particular type which are _unique_ to a specific caster class

Ward against spirits would be nifty, but I wonder how it'd work though. Let's say you're in the ward with NR up and running. So maybe you aren't affected by the enchantment and hex removal, but what about the increased casting times on those spells? By being outside the spirit's territory, are you spared? or do they still take longer time, as your targets are probably outside the ward?

Phades · Aug 21, 2005, 03:17 AM // 03:17

I was putting up a rather farcical suggestion with the ward against spirits thing. It would end up being something to the effect of, all spirits within the ward are destroyed and no player within the ward suffer the effects from any spirit.

It would probably be a coding nightmare though creating bubbles where the massive areas of spirits have no effect.

sabox · Aug 21, 2005, 08:24 AM // 08:24

<3 Rangers

<this post is from all the people who always though rangers were gimp.>

cria more plz.....

manveruppd · Aug 21, 2005, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabox

<3 Rangers

<this post is from all the people who always though rangers were gimp.>

cria more plz.....

I've played both with and against plenty of Rangers who were extremely effective WITHOUT resorting to such cheap tactics as building a wall of spirits to body-block opponents out or spamming the same spirit(s) over and over again! If you need them, it's nothing to flatter yourself about.

clonmac · Aug 21, 2005, 05:38 PM // 17:38

I like that ward against spirits idea. I wouldn't think it would be hard to do either. Whenever you are inside a ward, you get the effect in the upper left corner. So anyone within the ward can be protected against the effects of spirits. I think it should definately be a Water magic spell though. If it were air, then we'd see that flavor of the month all over again. Good idea though.

smurfhunter · Aug 21, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

but seriously, if you take away all the spirits (notable NR, conflag, winter, etc)... why would anyone even use rangers? i think instead of 'nerfing' rangers and spirits, they should simply create a "ward", like Hiawatha said. this would encourage people to stay in one spot (inside the ward)... which would make fire eles exciting again so you can nuke the spot... etc.

only problem with the ward idea is that the rangers who are outside this ward will still have the effect of the spirits... notably things like fertile seasons, winter, etc. so it wouldnt nescessarily destroy a spirit build. it might even backfire on you, for example if you have say 300 hp with fertile seasons, you run into the ward, and suddenly your at 100 hp... it would be kind of harsh.

actually the more i think about the ward idea the less i like it... the rangers outside would be like supertanks with 800 hp and 115 defense, everyones inside the ward would be buffed to the point of insanity. great. but most ranger builds bring a necro, and lingering curse (especially without NR going up) would do approximately the same thing. putrid would basically destroy most groups hiding inside a ward too.

more to the point i thing a ward is a good beginning, but you need something more elegant to balance the teams again. i am pretty opposed to the idea of really nerfing any skill in gw (as far as i know, none are really 'broken'), and its about dam time warriors had a comeback.

just my two cents

Hiawatha · Aug 21, 2005, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Tha ward was Phades' idea, my idea was to just have NR speed up the timers of hexes, enchantments, minions and spirits

EDIT: Coding a ward like that shouldn't be too difficult, as spirits already have a fixed range and everything